PAT: Today on Flip the Switch, the guys had a chance to talk with Derek Shebby, an expert sales management guru from a Fortune 500 company out of San Diego. Derek took his sales experience and created an e-course program that teaches individuals how to become fearless sales people. From prospecting to building a proposal, Derek walked us through how to become a successful sales professional.
Let’s get into it.
00:52 AUSTIN: Welcome to Flip the Switch, presented by Power Digital Marketing. I woke up this morning and I said, “Today is episode 50.” Big round of applause for us guys. We did it. We’re still on the air.
01:05 PAT: Still on the air. Our Curtis Jackson episode.
01:08 AUSTIN: 50 Cents. Great Rapper.
01:09 PAT: Fiddy Cent.
01:10 AUSTIN: Yeah, sorry. Mister 50 Cent.
01:11 PAT: Mr. 50 Cent. But enough of that. We had a great guest today. Mr. Derek Shebby.
01:18 AUSTIN: Very good guest on the show today.
01:19 PAT: Yeah. Very excited to show you guys this interview. I think there’s going to be a lot of good content that you can get out of this. Pretty much regardless of what industry or job you have.
So, I mean, we kind of talked through the sales process a little bit. He’s a great guy. Really conversational.
01:39 AUSTIN: Yeah. Just quick background… you got it in the intro… but he is a sales guru with e-courses online on Udemy. Some people might know that but it’s a website where you can purchase courses. That’ll train you in anything.
So he’s been doing sales courses on there that are doing very well. So he basically just chatted us through what the courses are. Obviously, how he came up with that knowledge, and then kind of what you’re going to learn if you were to take those courses.
So buckle in, get ready to sell.
02:04 PAT: All right. So with us today is Derek Shebby. He is in business development and sales for Fortune 500 companies. Here to talk to us a little bit today about his background and his current endeavors. Derek, thank you so much for joining us this morning.
02:17 DEREK: Oh, no problem. My pleasure.
02:19 PAT: so I think it’d be really beneficial for us to just get a little bit of a background as to who you are, kind of where you come from and what you’re all about.
02:26 DEREK: Sure, yeah, happy to do so. So I’m originally from the San Francisco Bay area…
02:30 PAT: Nice. What part?
02:31 DEREK: Originally Mountain View. So Mountain View, did a little bit in Danville up there, but then I had the choice to go to the Stanford of the north or Stanford of the south. So I chose Stanford of the south.
02:43 PAT: Yeah. San Diego State.
02:45 DEREK: San Diego State University. Of course.
02:49 PAT: “Harvard of the west. Stanford of the south.”
02:52 DEREK: Why wouldn’t I want to do Stanford of the south? So I came down here SDSU. 20 years ago. So I’m supposed to be going back for my 20 year reunion. It’s crazy to think about that.
But went to the great SDSU, ended up meeting my wife later on after that. I’ve got two boys. We live by SDSU today.
Yeah, so it’s been… I guess I should call this place my home now, as opposed to being from up north.
03:17 AUSTIN: I would say so, yeah. 20 years? Absolutely.
03:24 DEREK: And so started my job at this Fortune 500 company I work for right out of college. But I worked my way through college, so it wasn’t the first job I ever had. I don’t know… the 10th job or something. But been there ever since, and it was a sales job. So from this role–I started off as an outside sales rep. Business to business sales. And in my first few months I struggled a ton, and actually was told that if I didn’t perform I was out. It was one of those things.
It was a scary situation and I imagine some of the listeners that come in here can maybe relate, if they’re in sales, that it’s a… you perform or you’re done. You’re out.
04:02 AUSTIN: Is that typically the case with most entry level sales positions?
04:06 DEREK: Well, you know I think what happens is whatever role that you’re in, it’s pay for performance. Just like I imagine you all are expected to do certain things or they’ll get someone else to do it. And so there’s a lot of people out there that think they can do great in sales. But when they actually get out there and they say, “Okay, it’s time to do it.” They may cower away or just find something else to do. And so the company’s gotta make a decision.
So for me, I was just not really sure how to spend my time and I was just like anybody going into sales off the bat. You’ve got a really high level of confidence. And coming from SDSU and the Greek system and things like that, I’m like, “Yeah, I’m going to be like Elon Musk this year.
04:49 PAT: Yeah, “I can talk. I’ll probably be fine.” I think that’s the conception people have, right?
04:53 DEREK: Exactly. So basically I had to make a choice. And I definitely thought I could do great. And ended up doing some different things and ended up becoming top rep in the company. And top rep on the west coast basically. Did really well.
And then I went to sales management. But before I went to sales management I had a little stint in training. Because my boss told me that if he wanted me to be a great sales manager, I needed to be a really good trainer first so that I could develop people.
And so I’ll talk about that more a little later on, but with that I learned how to develop people and it was a big deal for me. So went into sales management. One of the top sales managers. And then some things happened in our organization, and wanted to do something different. And so I went back into training and now I train the salespeople, the sales managers and the VP of sales how to sell.
And so I did that for a while and then I learned that you get a lot of reward helping people that are struggling. Cause I know what people went through, right?
So I said, “Maybe there’s a way that I can make a little bit of extra cash.” And of course, my oldest son–who’s 4 and a half now–he’s going into pre-school. And I’m sure you’ll all learn one of these days when you all have kids that they’re expensive to put them through…
06:12 PAT: They’re pricy.
06:13 AUSTIN: So we’ve heard.
06:15 DEREK: Expensive.
06:16 AUSTIN: So was there a specific moment or maybe experiences where you’re like… besides, of course, having to do the training. Where you’re like… “I could do this for other people.” Or, “I want to do this for other people, because that was such a profound moment in my life that if I can’t explain that to someone, they could miss that too.”
06:31 DEREK: Yeah, so for me I think a big part that made it something that made me think I could do this. For training in the first stance. Was before I became a sales manager and I was told I needed to do this, I had to go train people. Some of the people I trained are now VPs of sales now for our company.
But the job was to teach people how to sell, and then from the beginning. So from prospecting all the way to getting the deal and implementing it. And then the way that I was compensated was really about them doing well. So it wasn’t about the sales that they did, but I got a lot more reward… it was so much more rewarding for me, out of helping them succeed. Cause I was crushing it out there. I was top sales rep in the company.
So it was very rewarding knowing that I could help improve somebody else’s life. And as a salesperson, what you find is that it’s really hard to feel fulfilled in your job. Because every single month there’s a certain amount of deals that you think are going to come in. And you count on them coming in. And then they don’t all come in, cause that’s just not how the game works. And so however the way the month ends up, you’re always thinking you could have done better. Or man, if you only got those other deals, you would have hit that number that you really wanted and it could have been a great month.
But so what happens is it’s difficult to ever really feel fulfilled in sales. It’s never ending. You can never turn it off. So here I am going into a different role where I’m training somebody else. Closing a deal for them. Seeing them transform from somebody that doesn’t know how to do it, to someone that does. And helping them. Because I was closing deals for them, things like that. It was very rewarding, cause you see that change.
08:12 PAT: Yeah, it’s a little more fulfilling maybe than just hitting your quota number or whatever it might be.
08:17 DEREK: For sure. And I always felt like that the greatest people in the world in the past, they all become teachers in some sense, right? You think about Socrates, and we’re just professors in general. They’re professors at a high institution, they’re great at what they do, and they’re people that you look up to. As the best at teaching.
And salespeople all think that they’re the greatest. But it’s one thing thinking you’re the greatest to being able to transfer that skill to someone else. So it’s tough.
08:46 PAT: That’s a little more of that validation too. It kind of lets you know that you do have that firm understanding of the process.
Speaking to that a little bit, I know that you kind of talked about it. You’re specialty is B to B sales. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to that as opposed to B to C or anything?
09:02 DEREK: Yeah, absolutely. You know, that’s a really interesting question. When I think of B to C, I think of things like Real Estate, and I think of just any sort of multi-level marketing type business. And I don’t know if you guys have had friends that are Real Estate agents?
09:20 PAT: Yeah.
09:22 DEREK: Do you feel obligated to use them for buying a house or something? Maybe you do, maybe you don’t. But let’s say they’re a really good friend, and they say, “Hey, just so you know, if you know of anybody that’s looking to buy something…”
You’re thinking, “Shoot. I’m going to have to probably use this person, right?”
09:37 PAT: Yeah. Exactly. I’m a bad friend if I don’t use this person.
09:39 DEREK: And then you find out how much money they make on a sale. And you think, “Well, wait a minute. I’m just coming to them, and they’re going to make like 20, 30, 40 thousand dollars off of me?” I’m coming to them and their just saying, “Oh, that’s the house that you want? Let me just put the paperwork together.”
And I imagine there’s more stuff to it.
09:57 PAT: I’m sure.
09:58 AUSTIN: The networking side of it’s got to be the biggest proponent of success truly in that industry. At least from what I’ve seen. One of my friends is a lender, works for a big brokerage. And that’s all it is, right? He’s trying to network as much as possible. Who can he run into? He’s in Facebook groups, he’s going to things on the weekend
10:17 PAT: Sending out template and linked messages.
10:20 AUSTIN: Someone to remember him. And that’s what it is. He needs to be remembered as the guy who’s the broker. “I wanna refinance.” Or, “Oh, I’m buying a new home.” And that’s kind of how that works.
10:29 DEREK: Exactly. And I think for me when you’re in B to B sales… things like Business to Consumer and selling Real Estate, you don’t really look at it as the same sort of profession. It’s almost just like your buddies are getting sales cause they’re from me… Or I don’t know if you have any friends that do insurance.
10:49 PAT: Yeah. Northwestern Mutual or something? I get called by one person a month that I knew in college.
10:57 DEREK: And they’re like, “Hey, just so you know. I’m doing insurance now. Why don’t you sign up and I’ll send someone over to draw your blood, next week or something, right? It’s crazy.
11:04 PAT: It’s insane.
11:06 AUSTIN: I had one friend do it, and I was there when the person showed up to draw the blood. And it was so surreal. I was like, “What’s happening right now? It’s from the insurance company? And they’re taking you blood?”
11:17 DEREK: So the thing about it… I know I’m making fun of a business just a little bit, but I look at it as the real, true sales is Business to Business. And that there’s multiple decision makers involved. There’s… It’s not friendly. You have to build connections with people. It’s sales.
So when you think of sales, it’s Business to Business. And it’s much more of a challenge. You’re involved in a sale and there could be 3, 4, 5, 10 competitors involved in it as well. So it is a challenge.
And the funny thing about Business to Consumer is on the Internet, if you look at salespeople that are training… “I’ll teach you how to sell.” Do you guys think they’re guys that did Business to Business, or Business to Consumer?
12:08 PAT: Probably Business to Business.
12:10 DEREK: It’s actually Real Estate. You get people like Grant Cardone, and he’s like “I make 400 million dollars a year,” and that kind of stuff. “And I’m going to teach you how to…” All this kind of stuff. And people eat that up. They do.
but then what happens is if you aren’t in Business to Consumer–you’re not in Real Estate–you look at it and you go, “Listen, I’m not going to make 40, 50, 100,000 dollars on a sale. I’m going to make 500 dollars, a thousand dollars.” Let’s just say something like that. It’s not realistic. But there’s nothing else out there teaching people really Business to Business. It’s just the pipe dream. It’s just the Real Estate. It’s just like your friends.
12:51 PAT: I’ve noticed to there’s like these sales gurus or marketing gurus that we see online. Like a Tai Lopez or a Grant Cardone. And they’re everywhere and they’re really in your face kind of flaunting their wealth. And they’re more selling the lifestyle than they are their specific tactics.
You know, like, I’ve seen reviews and I’ve actually watched a couple of their videos. And I’ve watched it and I’ve thought to myself, “This isn’t very substantial. They’re just kind of telling me how good they are at what they’re doing. And I should buy their course, or I should buy their book.”
13:16 AUSTIN: You gotta imagine they know their demographic though, right? They’re doing well which I don’t know if they are… but they’re still around, right? They’ve been doing it for a while. You’ve got to imagine they’ve found their target market. And somebody, somewhere is looking at that going, “I wanna be him.”
13:29 PAT: “I’m going to pay 3000 dollars for this master-mind course.”
13:31 AUSTIN: It is an interesting business model, though. I really have to say. I mean what are you truly selling? It’s just an idea.
13:37 DEREK: When you think about it most people… I don’t know I might be generalizing here… but most people at some point in their life go, “Hey, I could do Real Estate.” Right?
And I think somewhere down the line I’m going to buy a bunch of property, right? It’s just part of our human nature. We want to do that.
But the thing that we realize is that if it’s from a selling standpoint, if you’re good at it, does that mean that you’re good at going out and finding business from nothing? Or are you good at getting your friends to feel obligated to buy from you?
14:09 PAT: Right. Yeah, exactly. Cause there’s that whole personal network dynamic. And if anything, it kind of shows how potent you are within your friend group or within your network. As opposed to how good you actually, tactfully are at sales.
Whereas what I think you’re saying is with B to B, there’s a lot more of a landscape that you need to navigate. There’s kind of dos and don’ts. It’s a little bit more of a chess match.
As opposed to like Chinese checkers.
14:31 DEREK: Yeah. There’s selling. You actually have to sell in B to B. And then in B to C it’s more like you’re just making your family and friends feel obligated to go with you. Because it’s going to be awkward at the gathering.
You bought a house and you didn’t use them. It’s just going to be weird.
14:46 PAT: You’re going to have that weird conversation where it’s like, “Hey man, heard you put a down payment on a house? Who’d you go through?”
14:52 DEREK: Yeah, “Who’d you go through. Why didn’t you go through me? I would have done that for whatever… half of a percent less.”
14:56 PAT: Sure you would have.
14:57 DEREK: So you could have made 42,000 dollars off of it instead of whatever…
So what I’m getting at–I know I’m talking about this… It’s so funny because what I do online is I teach people how to sell Business to Business. That’s what I do and that’s what I do for my actual job. And it’s a completely different thing.
The whole sales process from start to finish is very challenging… it can be very challenging.
15:21 PAT: Well let’s talk about that a little bit. You kind of touched on it. What does that process look like? And if you can kind of compare that to how it’s a little bit different from what you’ve seen with B to C…
15:28 DEREK: Yeah, well I think the most simple thing for B to C is… there’s two things. There’s tell people about… tell your friends and family what you’re doing.
15:37 PAT: Get the word out.
15:39 DEREK: Ask them if they’re using something. If they’re not, consider using you. That’s like the name of the game… or having them reach out to their network or having them “like” your page, right? And so that gets out. That’s like it. It’s like you’re social networking.
So with B to B, you have to… you’ve gotta identify a target market, right? And it’s the type of contact you’re looking for. Maybe the type of company you’re looking for. That’s where you start. Then you gotta get your scripts ready to go to prospect. And your prospecting can be 90% of your day. Which means, if you’re taking an 8 to 5 day, 7 hours of that day is you pick up the phone, calling people. Or going business to business, walking in when no one wants to see you. No’s going like, “Derek, hey. Thanks for coming in.”
16:24 PAT: There’s a “No Soliciting” sign on the door.
16:29 DEREK: “We’re expecting…” No. No one’s expecting that.
So you’re walking in and you’re trying to get someone to come out who’s in the middle of something. Just like if someone were to come in right now and ask for one of the people on this podcast to come out and say “Oh, it’s important.”
16:41 AUSTIN: Might have to get them another mic and just have them come on and ask us the question.
16:45 DEREK: Exactly. It’s challenging, right?
So then there’s that. And then once you get someone interested to meet with you, then you’ve gotta make sure that meeting is pretty good.
16:54 AUSTIN: Worthwhile.
16:55 DEREK: Because if that meeting’s not any good, then they’re not going to want to meet with you again. And so it’s gotta be a powerful meeting.
And then that next step, whatever it is–has gotta be important, right? And then it keeps going all the way until you present a proposal, and then you close it and then you implement it. And then you make sure you fulfill and have it go great.
Similar thing for like what you all do for the digital marketing. You gotta find people to bring them in. And of course, there’s all these tricks and things you can do to do that, right?
17:23 PAT: There’s tons of tactics. Yeah exactly.
17:24 DEREK: But then once they come in, you’ve gotta nurture them and develop them and indoctrinate them. I guess that’s the word, right?
All the way up to them saying, “I like you enough to then say I’m willing to pay money for you.”
And then you’ve gotta make sure that whatever they paid for lives up to what the price tag was. And then you try to sell them more, and you try to take care of them and keep them around.
Same sort of thing, but this is more like you’re looking at someone like this saying, “This is who I am.” As opposed to your hiding behind pages.
17:55 PAT: Yeah. And I think this is so interesting, because I’m seeing so many parallels, like you were talking about, between digital marketing and a B to B sales process. Prospecting is crucial. You need to get that traffic to your pages, and get that traffic to your website.
But the most important thing is the first experience that they have, just like that first meeting. If they get to the website and they have a poor first experience–regardless of how good the offer is down the line, they’re going to still have that notion and that conception about who the company is in the back of their mind. There’s always going to be that hesitancy.
And then you’re fighting hurdles that you can’t anticipate. You know that if there’s a high price point, it’s going to be a longer nurture journey. If there’s a higher price point, it’s going to take more touch points.
But you’re not forecasting for the fact that maybe they just decided that they don’t like you, after that very first contact. And so that’s what we see on the ad side of things, especially.
If they have a poor experience. If the ad doesn’t match where you’re sending them. Or it doesn’t match what they were looking for, there’s a disconnect there.
And I think that’s what you’re talking about–having a powerful first meeting on the in person sales side. You need to really show that you’re matching what their intent is. You’re matching what they’re needs are.
Is that kind of what I’m hearing?
19:02 DEREK: Totally. Same sort of thing. Some of the words are different, but in general it’s like they agreed to meet with you for a reason. And then in that meeting… sometimes they give you 5 minutes. Sometimes you agree to an hour, and then it ends up being 15 minutes. And then you have to find out in that meeting, are you actually someone that can help them with that? And do they believe that at the end of the meeting?
And so there’s so much that goes into it as well. And also are they even the right person for you? Are you setting the appointment with the wrong person, as opposed to if someone’s clicking on a link online, and going to a lead magnet and saying, “This is interesting to me because of this reason…”
19:40 PAT: They’re showing that they’re the right person.
19:42 DEREK: They’re showing you that at least they’re a strong influencer. Now you could set an appointment with someone and they might be like, “Wow, they sounded really confident on the phone. I kind of missed exactly what they said, but they’re asking me to meet. And I’m interested to see who they are.”
19:56 PAT: There’s that variable too.
19:57 AUSTIN: And for prospecting, do you have a particular side of it that you enjoy more or that you’re better at, whether that be face-to-face or over the phone? Or is it over the Internet? Which medium would you say is truly the best? Or maybe best for you?
20:10 DEREK: Yeah, you know, that’s really interesting. And I think the thing about Business to Business sales is people shy away from Cold calling. They shy away from it.
It is scary. It totally is.
20:24 PAT: I don’t want to be shot down within 5 seconds of somebody picking up the phone.
20:28 DEREK: I just gave an analogy on this, and I thought it was perfect. So imagine you’re doing cold calling. It doesn’t matter whether it’s in person or over the phone. If it’s in person, and there’s a “No Soliciting”: sign, you’ve gotta walk through that door. It’s still kinda scary.
Cause you go, “Didn’t you see the sign on the door?”
20:43 PAT: Oh, no. Can’t read.
20:45 DEREK: Oh, I didn’t notice it right there… well I’m going to get security to take you out of here. This is like awful. I never want to do this again.
20:52 PAT: Right. It’s bad experience.
20:53 DEREK: And eventually just you sitting in the car getting the courage to get out there and prospect is the same thing as picking up the phone. You can have a contact, but what happens is… the analogy that I like to compare it to is let’s say boxing. So when you think about boxing, imagine you’re that prospector right now. You’re a Business to Business prospector, you’ve got gloves on for boxing. And what you don’t realize is that when you pick up the phone or when you go through that door, the person that’s going to be on the other side of that door and the other side of the phone could be Mike Tyson. Right?
And Mike Tyson could just… how do you think that’s going to go if you just walk in like, “I’ve got these gloves on. I don’t really know what I’m doing.”
21:34 AUSTIN: He’s going to knock you out.
21:35 DEREK: He’s going to knock you out, 2.5 seconds right?
21:36 PAT: That’s what the song says. He’s going to knock you out.
21:38 DEREK: Right, right. LL Cool J. So then what happens is you get knocked out and you say “I never want to do that again.”
And then so what happens is you start looking for alternatives. You start saying, “Oh, well cold calling doesn’t work anymore. Let me spend half the day on LinkedIn or other mediums to try to find a connection.” Right? And you try to make that social connection.
But the reality is anything that has a big upside, like setting an appointment over the phone or setting an appointment in person, there’s risk. And you need to be trained on how to do it.
22:12 PAT: So how do you determine whether or not that’s worth your time? Going back to something that you’d talked about earlier, was a time-management piece. Kind of prioritizing what you need to do first.
And I think that a common misconception that people might have about selling, is that it’s very time-consuming. There’s a lot of time that they need to put into the prospecting and a lot of time that you need to put into every aspect of all the leads that are in your pipeline.
You have some that are in different stages. How do you know when to do what?
Do you have any tips or tricks that you’ve used or found to be especially effective in terms of getting more efficient with your time? So that you can prospect that right number of people to have those leads in your pipeline?
22:49 DEREK: Absolutely. And I think along the lines with those, with time management… just to close off the last piece… if you know how to box, if you’re trained with how to box. And you know how to protect yourself. And you know how to see what they’re going to do and read them and different things like that… it’s going to become more of a challenge as opposed to fear.
Now are you going to be nervous when you walk into the ring with Mike Tyson?
23:09 PAT: Always.
23:10 DEREK: Yeah. The thing is they’re not always going to be like Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson’s going to be the good ones that you go, “Okay, if this person that is this good, then I can tell that this is an even better opportunity, cause they’ve got a lot of practice.” Right?
And so it becomes more of a challenge as opposed to you’re afraid. If you know how to play the game. Just like any game.
So back to the time management thing… so I guess the way I’d sum that up is that cold calling is the best way of setting appointments. That’s just how it is. It’s just flat-out.
So people that are trying to find other ways around it, you got rocked by Mike Tyson. And the fact is this… you don’t know how to do it right. That’s it. You don’t know how to do it right.
23:51 AUSTIN: That’s real interesting because with LinkedIn it’s become… I think, and a lot of people in sales say that this their best tool for either getting lists or new people. Is that typically not true, you would say?
Cold calls are still better than LinkedIn? Is there a way that LinkedIn can work and it’s just someone’s not good at it? What does that look like?
24:12 DEREK: I think in the B to B world… and this is in my opinion… I don’t think LinkedIn is a good sales tool. And I know that there’s Sales Navigator and there’s things like that that you can use, you can pay for. But it’s just in my opinion LinkedIn is somewhere you go after you’ve been rocked and you’re afraid to prospect. That’s what happens.
Because you can go and search and try to find the right contact on LinkedIn for as much time as it takes. Or you could pick up the phone and call the place and ask for that contact. And who that person is. And get it right there.
Or you can go in person, do the same thing. And you can get it pretty fast there, as opposed to spending your time on LinkedIn looking around…
24:50 AUSTIN: And they got to accept you. Then they gotta reply to your message.
24:56 DEREK: And think about it–if you’re on LinkedIn doing that, next thing you know you get an email, and then next thing you know you’re on Facebook and then you’re doing this and you’re doing that. It’s a black hole of lost productivity. So…
25:03 PAT: Probably trying to schedule a call with all those contacts, too…
25:08 DEREK: It’s insane. LinkedIn for me is more of a recruiter’s playground. That’s where people go to pick people up. As opposed to a sales tool. I think they’re really trying hard to be a sales tool, but it’s not.
Think about your own emails that you get from people. I mean, most of them are probably recruiters.
And so anyway, so back to the time management cause it’s a great question. In Business to Business, the sales world, there’s really only a few things that you should be doing between 8 to 5. That’s the golden hours. So when we say to 5, I think that’s… at least in the United States… that’s when business hours are open. So it would be acceptable to call someone, or prospect or meet with someone during that time-frame right?
So we call those the Golden Hours. And that’s not a term I made up. It’s a common thing.
So there’s 4 things you can do during that time. First thing you can do is prospect. Second thing you can do is you can have client meetings, where you’re actually having appointments. Where you’re trying to actively sell something, or move something forward. Whatever it is, right? Or have a great, powerful first meeting.
Then you have where you’re presenting proposals. Cause that’s different than a first meeting. First meeting you’re trying to find opportunity and see where people are at.
Presenting proposals, you’ve already gone through the entire process and you’re at the end. That’s like when you’re selling your product or your main offer at the end, right? So that doesn’t come up front. That happens after some time.
So there’s presenting proposals–not putting them together–presenting them.
And then the last thing is your implementations. Cause you’re going to have to implement your solutions during the day.
So what does that mean? That means that the rest of the time, whether it’s before 8 or after 5, that’s where you’ve gotta do your emails. That’s where you gotta do your administrative work. That’s where you gotta create a proposal. That’s where you gotta respond to certain things. All the extra stuff.
Cause a salesperson needs to get that stuff during 8 to 5. So let’s look at this. So if your day–we’re on a Friday here–but let’s say you’re a salesperson, you’re walking into a Friday. You look at your calendar, and you say, “Do I have any appointments today?” Let’s just say the answer is No.
Then you look at it and inside of those appointments it could be, “Am I presenting any proposals today?” And if the answer is No, then you go okay, “Well am I implementing any sales that I just did?” If the answer is No, the last thing–which is really the first thing–is prospecting.
Which means that 8 to 5 you have got to remove the distractions, remove your fear. Make sure you’ve got a list of places to call on, places to go. And get after it.
And the thing is, if you’re not ready for that, then that’s what you’re supposed to be doing from 7 to 8. Or the day before from 5 to 6. Right?
That’s what you should be ready for. Cause you go, “I’m looking at my Friday. I don’t have those things going on, so I know that I need prospects. And I don’t have those other things going, so I better make sure I maximize the Golden Hours.”
And so from your time management standpoint, I think what happens… and it’s really a result of people not knowing how to do prospecting right. That they are afraid of it. And fear comes from just a lack of knowledge.
I’ll give you an example from fear. I don’t know if anyone’s skydived here, before. Anyone?
28:22 PAT: When I was 18.
28:23 DEREK: Okay, I’ve never skydived before. But let’s just say for everyone else speaking of skydiving… Let’s just say, “Hey, guess what? We’re going skydiving. We’re going skydiving today. And we’re not going with anybody that’s done it before. And we’re all jumping out by ourselves.”
28:39 PAT: No shot.
28:40 DEREK: Yeah, might be a little nervous, cause there’s a lot of things that we’re thinking about. Do we have the parachute on right? Is this one that has a parachute inside of it? Can I test it out?
28:49 PAT: What do I pull?
28:51 DEREK: Which lever do I pull? Is it going to come off when I jump out of the plane? Am I jumping out of the plane to early? Am I jumping out the wrong way? When do I pull it?
There’s all of this stuff where you’re going, “I’m a goner.”
29:02 PAT: Yeah. And there’s no feedback until it’s too late.
29:05 DEREK: Yeah, and so what happens is you’re not going to want to do that.
But now let’s say you go with someone and you do it a few times. And now you know, this is where I pull, and this is how it’s on. And this is how I know it’s on correctly. And this is how I know it’s the right parachute. And this is how I know when it’s time to jump out. And this is how I know how to jump out.
You’re going to still do it. And sure, it’s still going to be a little thrilling… which is why you want to do it. But you’re not going to go there thinking, “I’m terrified that I might not come back out of this,” right?
Prospecting’s just like that.
29:36 AUSTIN: Did you, when you first got into it, was there someone that brought you along on potential prospecting meetings or anything like that? Or did you have to kind of experience that jumping out of the plane, so to speak?
29:47 DEREK: Well, I think for me in the beginning, I experienced a lot of it just by jumping out of the plane.
But as a salesperson… and I think what’s challenging to salespeople in general is that everyone thinks that they’re the best. Everyone thinks that they’re the best until you get a letter. And you get a letter from your boss saying, “You’re not performing. So it’s time for you to perform this month or you’re gone.”
And so I got that. And so when I got that, I basically was saying you just need to get over yourself, and you’ve got to get prospects. Because if you’ve got nothing to bring in, then you need to get prospects.
And that doesn’t mean go on LinkedIn… course, it wasn’t around back then… but it doesn’t mean let’s spend 8 hours on LinkedIn looking for people. It was going out, going door-to-door, calling people over the phone. And I think what happens is when you have good coaches… just like that person who’s behind you on the skydiving right? Showing you how to do it right the first time, or whatever. Then you start seeing things that work and things that don’t work. And you start getting confident enough that you develop your own way.
Just like if you know how to box and you walk in the ring, you’re trained how to do it. But then you might eventually adopt your own things as you do it. But you know that if you stray a little bit from the training, there’s a chance that you might leave yourself open, and get knocked out.
At the same time, you’re confident enough to push those envelops, right?
And so… for me… I’m on my 16th year now doing Business to Business sales successfully. I feel like I’ve got a pretty good way of doing it. And I’ve organized it in a fashion where I think anybody in the world can adopt it.
But yeah, fear of cold calling. Cold Calling is not dead, by any means. And I think it just comes from anything. I’m never going to go skydiving unless someone’s showing me how to do it. Never.
31:35 AUSTIN: Yeah, I don’t think you’re wrong at all. We have a couple friends of ours that work at Howe’s down the street. If you know them or are familiar with them. But they’re an online company that sells pretty much to businesses that are in maybe like the Home Improvement industry. So you’re like a small shop that does like contracting maybe. Or like refurbishing of furniture.
You can make a profile on Howe’s and then consumers can go on there and just type it in. “I need new paint for my walls.” Or like, ideas to paint my house. And then that business will pop up at the top. So it’s kind of like a search engine.
But anyways, the point is, their sales team they call. And it’s an internet company. Literally the point of their business is to get businesses on their website. But they’re cold calling. They’re not doing LinkedIn. Maybe just for a little bit of prospecting, but they’re not doing that to make that acquisition, right?
It’s still the phones. You’ve gotta talk on the phone and this is what my friend says all the time. It doesn’t matter that it’s an Internet business. It matters who you’re talking to. And then that person… you need to get them to make a decision. So you gotta get them on the line.
32:31 DEREK: Of course, there’s another strategies too. There’s cold email and things like that. Like I know you guys know about, cause with digital marketing… there’s things like that you can do too. But you gotta remember that the biggest upside has the biggest risk. And it’s the scariest, right?
So it’s pretty… it’s not really that scary when you send out a bunch of emails and automate that, right? You just put it out there, and whatever you get back.
But if you want a big upside, it’s getting face-to-face with someone. It’s getting that person to pick up the phone.
And so just like anything, the better you are trained, the better results you’ll get.
So that’s what I’d say for that piece. For time management. You gotta know where you’re at for each day, and you prepare to be great for it.
33:12 PAT: Absolutely. And you touched on something kind of interesting that I want to delve into a little bit. You talked about that training component and the coaching component and how people have that guidance. They have the ability to succeed with that big upside and kind of conquer that fear. Become the fearless prospector.
You’re starting to put together some courses for users to learn the sales process through your training methods online.
Let’s talk about that a little bit. What was the motivation? Because you know, you’ve trained people before. You’ve gotten that fulfillment.
But do you think that that’s… do you get that fulfillment from the face-to-face contact and watching this person grow individually? Or do you just like coaching? Do you like just kind of imparting the wisdom and experience that you’ve had?
33:52 DEREK: Well, you know, it started… I love… you always want to see results. Just like I imagine you all have clients that you work with and you say, “I’m going to do all these things for you. Let me show you.”
And then as soon as it does, you’re like, “Yeah! I told you.”
34:03 PAT: I told you. Exactly.
34:04 DEREK: “See? I told you it was going to do this, and it did that.”
And I think that whole feedback element is critical and we as human beings want to have that sort of acknowledgement that we were validated. That we did something right.
And I think when it’s face-to-face in person, you do have that. And it’s… Especially if you’ve got to take them through the entire sales cycle. It’s not just one thing and I think a lot of trainers are ones that just tell people what to do, but then they’re not held accountable to actually take you through it and do it. And I think that’s where I’ve kind of been… for me, in that second spot…
But online things for me just were a little different. My boys are getting older, 4 and a half and 2 and half at this point. And we needed to pay for daycare. And I was like, “Well maybe I could find a way to make a couple of extra bucks.”
And so outside of work, and on the weekends, I took some of… I repurposed some content in my own way. So it’s nothing against my organization. But I found a way to make it general enough so people of any Business to Business company could take things from it.
35:08 AUSTIN: Yeah, and just to elaborate a little bit more on that, and the structure maybe of the courses. What does it look like if you’re start to finish? What’s the steps that you would take? Maybe what does the course entail or different sections.
35:18 DEREK: So I’ve got 9 courses that are out there right now. 9
35:22 PAT: Nice. Cranking.
35:23 DEREK: Yeah. And they’re all on Udemy and Skillshare, so I thought about it and I said, “Well, I train every single day on teaching people how to do this kind of stuff. And I were to say “Prospecting,” that might take at least a week to do.
But I’ve got a couple courses of those 9 that are on prospecting and they might be an hour and a half, 2 hours each. I mean, it’s really hard to take a week and turn that into a small section.
So I’ve got basically… I’ve got 11 total in the series that I’m working up to. And that would be… in my mind… a complete Business to Business training course. And they’re all about skillsets along the way. So the first one really is about learning how to understand the sales numbers game. Cause there’s numbers games, just like if you were to talk about how many emails you sent out, the bounce rate, and how many unsubscribes. There’s accepted numbers that you would know, “I’m doing good here.” Or I’m not. Or I gotta change something.
36:21 PAT: Yeah. There’s your benchmarks.
36:22 DEREK: Right. And so in just in sales… sales have been around forever. Every single step of a sales process has benchmarks. In Business to Business.
And so what happens is that if you know what those are, then you can constantly measure yourself and each action that you do on how well you’re doing.
So the first course I have is all about learning about those numbers games. How to play the numbers game. How you can win it.
Second course is about learning about how people… why some customers buy and others don’t.
Third one’s about value propositions and creating cold calling scripts.
Fourth one is one that I’m building. It’s how to create a great list. Target list for you to call on.
Fifth one is about how do you prospect on foot? Cold call on foot.
Sixth one is about how to prospect over the phone.
Seventh is that first appointment. Cause that’s the next step, right?
Eighth is the proposal. Tips for proposals. Cause I can’t really say “this is how you do proposals.” Cause everyone does different proposals, right?
37:20 PAT: Yeah. Gotta be unique to whoever you’re going after.
37:22 AUSTIN: It’s more of a template.
37:24 DEREK: Yeah. And then the ninth one is how to handle objections. Cause there’s objections throughout the whole process.
37:28 PAT: That is one that I think would be super-beneficial for almost any level.
37:32 AUSTIN: I was thinking the same thing. Rejection is something that probably everyone struggles with.
37:36 PAT: And it goes back to the point that you were even talking about. Is how people struggle with the prospecting and doing it over the phone, is they’re scared of the rejection. They’re scared of being acknowledged as like, “You failed in this situation.” And I think that handling objection in a way where you can learn from it and use that for further strategy not only applies to sales, but applies to almost any facet of your career.
In the sense that you need to be able to pick up the pieces from whatever may have fallen the last time, and understand what worked and what didn’t. And improve going forward so that you’re not repeating the same mistakes.
And those objections are going to be different likely, I’d imagine, the person that you’re dealing with specifically, too. Whether you’re dealing with a direct point of contact. Whether you’re dealing with a decision maker. What phase are you at in the proposal?
Is that kind of what that course is about?
38:19 DEREK: So I basically talk about how to handle objections on foot. How to handle objections over the phone. And then even give a how to handle objections like the price objection. Like you’re price is too high.
So I go through those sort of things. But really the spirit behind the objections, just like anything else, is if you know what the customer’s going to say to you. And you know the objections that they’re going to say, then there’s no surprise.
You know this is going to happen, and this is going to happen. This is going to happen. And so when you’re prepared for it, then it doesn’t surprise you, and you’re not caught off guard.
38:48 PAT: It almost sounds like getting ready for trial, or something, right? You’re getting ready for a cross-examination. They’re going to ask me this, and I’m going to say this. And then they’re going to say this…
38:54 AUSTIN: That’s real interesting. So there’s pretty typical responses you’re saying when someone’s being negative or confrontational or objected to what you’re offering?
39:02 DEREK: Yup, absolutely. And there’s certain ones that they always do.
39:05 AUSTIN: That’s interesting.
39:06 DEREK: Yeah, and so I basically drill those with you over and over again so by the time you’re outside the course, you’re thinking “Okay, well I know what’s going to happen.
So after that I’ve got the course which I’m building also which is how to create urgency. And then my last course is my eleventh which is tools for dealing with rejection. It’s a mindset course. And so I have those.
39:30 AUSTIN: I’m impressed that you remembered all eleven.
39:33 PAT: Yeah, in chronological order.
39:34 AUSTIN: That was impressive.
39:36 DEREK: Yeah, well it’s one of those things… Cause any time you train you’ve gotta make sure you go, “What’s the end result? And how does it all fit into everything?”
So that’s what I put together. And then yeah, so that’s what I’m doing for that.
And then the fearless prospector, like you mentioned earlier, that’s something that I’m actually working on as well. Where I took… if we just talk about prospecting. And just take all of those courses out, and just strip out everything. And just put one master course of prospecting, for Business to Business, that’s that. And I call it the Fearless Prospector. And it’s 8 hours long. But it’s all one thing, and I give people a snippet of it for free, inside of a webinar.
40:16 PAT: There we go.
40:18 AUSTIN: And that was actually what I was going to transition into next. We want to talk a little bit about how you’re marketing this business. And kind of your introduction to the Internet has now turned into… it seems to be your greatest tool for marketing.
So what about the webinar. A little bit about the webinar… Can you elaborate a little bit on your funnel or kind of what that looks like? How are you prospecting for your e-courses?
40:32 DEREK: Yeah. And I think this is great and this wasn’t a plug you guys, before but just coming off the cuff here. But I originally, when I just uploading everything inside of Udemy and Skillshare, I wasn’t expecting much to come out of it, but it was enough to make me think “wow, maybe I could actually help more people in the world with this sort of stuff.”
And then I started learning about how I sell it online really. And with a place like Power Digital, and how you’re all digital marketers and you help businesses do this, I started really getting an appreciation for how much work it is to get someone to buy something online.
And so I first had to create my course, which really is a collection of the courses I already have out there, but it’s really so much more. Because when you see it–the thing about sales is there’s things that you can talk about at the beginning of the sales cycle, that also apply to the middle. And then things at the end of the sales cycle that might apply to also the middle. But it’s like you need to know how it all fits together. And so I put together a big master course on that.
And then I needed to think about, “Okay, how do I sell this master course?” And so the way I came out with that is I would sell it through a webinar, and which is… I guess it’s called a “webinar funnel,” right?
So then I put inside of something called EverWebinar, so I can reach people really anyplace in the world. At any time that works for them. And so that webinar would be there.
And I wanted to make sure that I would be giving people really good information about sales that they might not have known already. Cause I know that people struggling. I know what they’re going through. I know that the only sales avenues they have for training really online is Business to Consumer. Which is like, “let me teach how to make a gazillion dollars.”
42:18 PAT: Right. Going back to the Grant Cardone thing, right?
42:19 DEREK: But they’re going “well, I only make $250 on a sale Derek. That doesn’t apply to me.”
I mean, there’s like 10% of people doing real estate, and there’s 90% of people doing everything else. And there’s nothing for that.
And so I wanted to make sure it reached them no matter where. So I put it in EverWebinar so it’s live. And then what happens is I needed to get people to that webinar, so I then I had to learn about click-funnels and figuring out that whole system and that whole tool.
And then eventually it’s like, “I know I can help people. I’ve seen the results.” I think I’ve got close to 500 5-star reviews right now on Udemy and SkillShare, so people are just loving it. This is fantastic because I’m not just some random person talking over PowerPoint. It’s just like you and me talking here.
And I’m looking at the camera, and I’m saying, “Look, I do this for a living. I’m going to help you.”
So I know it works. I’m saying let me get it bigger. And throughout the whole process in this funnel, I know everyone listening probably understand more about the digital marketing world–but there’s all these steps that go along the way. Instead of me just uploading something into a website and then just waiting for things to happen.
43:21 PAT: Yeah. And there’s so many things that you can leverage too. For instance, those 500 5-star reviews that you have. That is part of what can be showcased on a landing page. Kind of give credibility.
I think that what people are looking for a lot of times isn’t just the information, but they need validation. Kind of going back to that fear aspect. They’re looking for validation that what they’re looking at isn’t going to be a waste of their time.
Because at the end of the day, I think that people really do value their time the most. That’s why they don’t like a bad website experience. Not because it upset them, but because it was a waste of their time.
You know, people don’t like rejection over the phone for sales, because they feel like they wasted their time. So kind of showcasing the fact that it isn’t going to be a waste of time, and hey, there are results that you can achieve through this, is important.
With almost anything that you do in digital. And it’s awesome that you have that backing for your courses, cause it’s just going to make them go that much farther.
44:18 DEREK: Yeah, I’m hoping that people check it out. And it’s different, cause you see a lot of people saying that these are scams online. People are saying Tai Lopez is a scam.
44:25 PAT: Tai Lopez is a little bit of a scam.
44:26 DEREK: You see those little things like that, you hear that online, but I think it’s… I really think that this is something that can help people. So I’m not trying to make it some sort of like, “Join my special elite group and you’re all going to be making millions of dollars a year.”
That’s not the case. You’ll make a good living, but you’re going to do it without fear. And so I take the approach from my Fearless Prospector course of saying, “If you have more prospects than ever coming in. And I can show you how to do that confidently, and comfortably. Then everything else is going to take care of itself. You’re going to learn how to close. You’re going to learn how to negotiate. You’re going to learn that because you’re going to have more chances to practice, right?
45:08 PAT: That’s a volume thing.
45:09 DEREK: Right. But see what’s happening today is someone goes, “I had one prospect come in and I brought him to proposal. And I wasn’t able to close them.” And so they go to different people online to learn how to close.
And these guys are Real Estate people. And they’re like, “Oh, you need to close them hardcore. You need to do this and that.”
45:26 PAT: Yeah, hardball them.
45:28 DEREK: Yeah. But the reality is listen, who wants to be closed by a salesperson? I don’t. Do you guys want that?
45:34 PAT: No one even wants to be sold to. People need help.
45:37 DEREK: That’s exactly the point. That’s what the thing is. The irony is people are going, “I will make more money if I become a better closer,” but that’s not the reality. The reality is, “Look, you’re not going to get everything. We’re in a different world today where people can look online and search for something. And they don’t need salespeople to close them hard anymore. Those days are gone,
You just need prospects, right? So if you build that skillset up, then it’ll all work out. And you’re going to find people that you’re going to work together, and some people you’re not going to work together. But it’s okay.
But as long as you got that steady stream coming in, it’s going to be okay. So my course is trying to really appeal to those people to get out of their minds saying, “Look, you had one sale that you had an opportunity at. You lost it. The answer isn’t to become a better closer. The answer is to find out how you can get more people to work on, instead of making that one–hard close them into… No one wants that. I don’t want that.
46:30 PAT: No people just want to be listened to, at the end of the day, too. They’re like, “here’s what’s going on. Can you help me?”
They don’t want somebody aggressively, “here’s what you need.” At that point, it needs to be their decision, right? Especially in B to B I’d imagine that’s even more so the case, because there’s a lot more on the line. Depending on the solution you’re trying to provide them with.
So that’s definitely a lot of interesting insight there.
You also wrote a book recently, is that right?
46:56DEREK: Yeah. Yeah.
46:57 PAT: Let’s talk about that a little bit. What was that experience like?
46:58 DEREK: That was interesting. It all started back in… I think it was Matt Cutts who worked for Google. He wrote “try something new for 30 days.” He did that video and I thought that was awesome.
So I actually watched that video, and I started writing a blog. And this was years ago. But then I watched it again, and I said, “Maybe I’ll write a book.” And so in sales one of the most common questions you get asked by salespeople is how do you ask great questions on your first appointment? Because that first appointment’s so critical. And you need it to go to a next step.
And so really the big thing is how do you find opportunity when you’re on that appointment. Because you work so hard to find a prospector and get a prospect interested in meeting with you. Now if you don’t do a good job there, you’re back prospecting again. And you want to meet with people. You’ve gotta have that happen.
So the book was me breaking down very simply a way that I called the consultative questioning process. About how you ask questions on a first appointment, to find opportunity and I really break that down for people. So it’s still a new book out there, but I think eventually… it’s practical. It’s not coming from someone that maybe did sales 30 years ago and they’re saying this how you do it. This is something that I do today.
48:24 AUSTIN: Yeah. And just a quick reminder for everybody, since we’re wrapping up, where to get your courses. Is your book on Amazon? And then what were the sites you said your courses were on?
48:31 DEREK: Yeah, my books on Amazon. And it’s called, “How to Ask Great Questions that Lead to Opportunity.” Doesn’t have any reviews yet, because it’s brand new out there, but…
48:40 PAT: Those’ll come.
48:41 DEREK: Yeah. Those’ll come.
It’ll help people that are literally looking for that.
And then for my actual courses themselves, you can all find it through my website, which is modernsalestraining.com. Just click on videos. And then if you want to check out my Fearless Prospector webinar, you can look under “Free Training” on my website. It’s right there on the top, and there’s a big spotlight right there on the homepage.
And that’s really… and I do obviously offer my Fearless Prospector course at the end of it, but the first half of that training is really good prospecting, sales training that you probably haven’t heard before. So I’d say just know that I will shift to trying to sell you my course. But you don’t have to stay for that, and at the very least I’ve got good things that could help your business. Help you do better. And so I recommend you checking out the webinar for that.
49:34 PAT: Absolutely. Awesome. Well definitely a lot of good resources out there. I know that I [personally am going to check out that objections course for sure. Definitely encourage our listeners to do the same thing.
Derek, thank you so much for coming in today. We really appreciate you taking the time.
49:47 DEREK: No problem. My pleasure. Thanks guys.
49:52 AUSTIN: Thanks again to Derek Shebby for coming on the show. That was very fascinating. I think the one thing we all took away from that is the objection side of it. That applies too regardless if you’re a salesperson. Or in digital marketing.
That is something that I would like to get better at.
50:07 PAT: 100%. The fact that he has, like, proven tactics. And the ability to showcase how to get better at that, is invaluable regardless of what industry… And I also really liked how he talked about the coaching aspect and the training aspect of things. And how he gets fulfillment out of that. That’s something that… I think there’s that misconception about sales, right? That you need to be a hard seller, kind of like he talked about. And that it’s all about money, money, money. Commission, commission.
But people get different senses of fulfillment out of the different aspects of the job. And he’s clearly somebody that likes to be that coach and that mentor figure. And that’s something that I definitely respect about him a lot.
50:39 AUSTIN: The pipeline aspect of it, was something that I never made the connection. I always think–when I think sales–the hard sell. It’s “I gotta be good at closing,” if I were a salesperson. Closing that person and persuading them to make the call.
But from his perspective he’s saying it doesn’t matter. If you’ve got enough people coming in the door, eventually you’re going to be helping the people that need help. So make it more about having people come to the door. And help them out, right? With the service that you provide.
So I really like that angle and I thought that was a very good interview.
51:08 PAT: Yeah, absolutely. Great interview with Derek Shebby. Thank you again.
And thank you all for listening to episode 50 of Flip the Switch. Didn’t think that we were going to be on the air this long. But we’ll be back again next week with some more, great content for you guys.
Until that time, definitely join the forum group that we have on Facebook. It’s Flip the Switch podcast forum. Austin is waiting by his computer to accept you guys into that group now. Share tons of great content and info. But until that time, this has been Pat Kriedler, Austin Mahaffy, John Saunders and Joe Hollerup, signing off.